This Is A Cool Site – That is if you are into Renewable Energy

In the new spirit of this BLOG I am only going to post articles that get my heart pumping and my blood flowing. Without further adieu I present SciencePlus.

What’s New for Renewable Energy

Energy drives social and economic development. In the past, the discovery of oil triggered an unprecedented industrial revolution that had significant impacts on our quality of life. A single litre of oil provides as many calories as two to twenty weeks of human labour, enough energy to fuel our growing industries, heat our homes, and get us from point A to point B quickly.

However, with an alarming scarcity of fossil fuels and growing energy demands on the horizon, especially for emerging economies, the search for sustainable means of production is not only imperative for the preservation of the environment—it is also becoming highly lucrative. That is why renewable energy is receiving more and more attention from governments and businesses. There is talk of a new industrial revolution, one that is all about green energy.

Since the Kyoto Protocol, most countries have increased the proportion of their budget invested in energy with the potential for long-term sustainability. We can already see results; even in 2006, 18.6% of the world’s electricity came from renewable resources. Of that percentage, hydraulic energy (hydroelectric dams, underwater turbines, tidal power plants, etc.) constituted 89%, biomass constituted 5.7%, and wind power, geothermal energy, and solar power constituted 3.5%, 1.7%, and 0.2%, respectively.


This is a huge site. Go there and read. More next week.


Dick Gephardt – He pollutes minds as well as the air

This pains me almost as much as Mary Landrieu. I never worked for Dick but he was always good on so many issues. C’est la vie…sigh

Dick Gephardt’s Spectacular Sellout

By Sebastian Jones

This article appeared in the October 19, 2009 edition of The Nation.

September 30, 2009

In March, months after the government gave an unprecedented $85 billion to AIG, the insurance giant released a list of counterparties, exposing some of the world’s top financial institutions as the real recipients of the bailout. First among its peers, Goldman Sachs got a whopping $12.9 billion, despite having claimed in September to be insulated from AIG’s troubles. Based on these revelations, Maryland Democratic Congressman Elijah Cummings, who had dogged the financial industry since the crisis began, told his staff to prepare a letter calling for an investigation.

Two Congressional staffers familiar with the matter told The Nation that a draft was circulated to House members on March 23. Within hours, Cummings’s office had received a phone call from a lobbying firm hired by Goldman Sachs, making an “insistent but polite” request for a meeting. Cummings, intending to send the letter regardless, granted the audience, and so it was that top Goldman executives like president Gary Cohn and CFO David Viniar arrived the next day. They brought someone else too, a big-name Democratic politician with serious populist credibility: Dick Gephardt.


But the real issue here is pollution.

The Arm Twister
Dick Gephardt
CEO, Gephardt Group

The former House majority leader now uses his considerable political clout as a lobbyist for Peabody Energy, the world’s largest private-sector coal company. Working behind the scenes on Capitol Hill, Gephardt has emerged as the most credible proponent of “clean coal” — an imaginary technology being touted by the industry as an alternative to limits on carbon pollution. (“Clean coal is like healthy cigarettes,” says Al Gore. “It does not exist.”) In July, Gephardt was the keynote speaker at the Clean Coal Technology Conference, an honor bestowed after he helped win $1 billion in stimulus funding for FutureGen, a “clean coal” boondoggle promoted by Peabody. That’s a significant return on the $1.7 million that Peabody and the FutureGen Industrial Alliance have invested in Gephardt Group’s services since 2007. His firm also lobbies for Ameren, the nation’s fourth-dirtiest utility, as well as for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The head of Peabody’s Washington office, Fred Palmer, marvels at the access the ex-congressman still enjoys on Capitol Hill: “I can meet with a lot of people, but I’m Fred Palmer. He’s Dick Gephardt.”


So to Dick we must say – Smoke gets in our eyes:


CleanTechies – A way to live off the land now

It’s Jam Band Friday –

I usually post this on CES’ Bulletin Board  for them but it dawned on me when this came in this morning, that many people are already working with the the goodness of the Earth in mind. That includes all of the Earth advocates in groups like Clean Techies and the Nature Conservancy.

Ceylan Thomson sent a message to the members of CleanTechies.


:} ( )

Subject: View New Job Openings – Win Free Event Tickets!

Dear fellow CleanTechies,

I would like to highlight a few promising events that are coming up. CleanTechies is proud to be official media partner for all these events and offers you the chance to win free tickets. Read on to find more details.

If you are hiring right now, it would be great if you wanted to share your openings with the CleanTechies community. We have one of the most active job boards in the industry, and you can post your jobs for FREE by using discount code “free09”. Post your jobs at:;

Some of the latest openings on CleanTechies:

* Director of Business Development – OPOWER;

* Lab Technician – Potter Drilling;

* Lead Power Supply Engineer, Energy Harvesting & Storage – Insiders’ Connection;

* Alternative Energy Sales & Marketing – Pleasant Valley Energy;

* Senior Software Engineer, Scaling Specialist – OPOWER;

* Sales reps & distributors – EZ Energy Savings;

Find more jobs at:;
– – – – – – – – – – – — – – – – – – — – – – – – – –
Subscribe to our FREE job news feed:;
– – – – – – – – – – – — – – – – – – — – – – – – – –
:} ( )

Some of the latest CleanTechies blog posts:

* Environmental Change: If I Were the New CEO of Chevron…;

* Green Building: Air Leaking, Utility Bills and a Caulk Gun;

* Water Filtration: Safe Drinking Water from Thin Air?;

* Could America Tax Gasoline More (And Fund Clean Tech)?;

* Train in Vain: Epilogue on High-Speed Rail Series;

For more insights, visit:;
– – – – – – – – – – – — – – – – – – — – – – – – – –
Subscribe to our FREE news feed:;
– – – – – – – – – – – — – – – – – – — – – – – – – –
:} ( )

Warm regards,

Ceylan Thomson
Chief Marketing Officer;


While we are in a commerce frame of mind, if you are in the mood for a hurricane proof house in Florida try these folks:

I know it is jam band FRIDAY but I wanted to do a couple of long ones:

( )


Tidal Generators – Let’s harness the Moon before it drifts away

It’s Jammin Band Friday. Not only that but I have spent so much time this week hyping the Wind Power 2009 conference/convention that I thought I should end on a surfin note:

It is a little know fact that the moon is moving away from the Earth at about an inch per year. We know this because on one of the Apollo Landings (quick for those of you who don’t believe that they ever happened -CLOSE Your Eyes) they placed an aluminum block on it’s surface. Since that time and with intensifying accuracy we have been bouncing lasers off of it and this has allowed us to determine the distance to the moon (its original purpose) but the unexpected find that that distance is widening…Anyway this means that eventually the Moon will drift away into space. I think we should harvest its today power while we can. I mean in a million years or so it could be gone. Here is a huge thought problem for you…Where will it go?..Whoa


We The People 

Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness:  Health Care is a RIGHT 
Solar Power  The Wave of Tomorrow!!!
The three devices  The Syphon Wave Generator , The Floating Wave Generator and The Under The Bottom Generator
could have a major effect in stopping global warming by converting ocean waves into electricity.
Click Here to see the new Syphon Wave Generator video on You Tube!!
            The Syphon Wave Generator           The Floating Wave Generator          The Under the Bottom Generator
Patent No. 7355298     04/08/2008               Patent No. US 7315092    01/01/2008          Patent Pending No. 61204580
                              The Three inventions are being developed by Green Wave Energy Corp
Click these links for more information and videos
  There will soon be a new video of a working Floating Wave Generator producing Hydrogen and Real Power and The Under the Bottom Generator!!

How about a power plant for less than $1 per watt to construct and install?
Click here for more information!
For Energy Saving Products including:
Wind Mills   Solar Collectors  and  Power Save Products
go to  GWEC  
These units could produce enough power to replace most oil, coal and nuclear power plants with 100% solar produced electricity.  The Syphon Wave Generators would produce enough electricity at such a low cost they would make it possible to separate the hydrogen from ocean water and  store it in power cells to use in our cars and trucks. We would also be able to convert homes now powered with heating oil to electric heat saving billions of gallons of oil per year. I estimate one square mile of Syphon Wave Generators, in good locations with average two meter waves, would produce as much power as ten nuclear reactors.  1,000,000,000 watts!
Today we are growing more and more crops to convert into fuel to run our cars. These crops could feed every hungry person in the world.  I find this unconscionable. We could and should be using our farm land to grow food crops and use the solar power to power our world. We could do this and the Syphon Wave Generator and the Floating Wave Generator are tools to help make this happen.
Thanks for your interest
G Edward Cook


October 02, 2008

Wave power generator cranks up off Portuguese coast, and Oregon may be next

Pelamiswavepower The world’s first commercial wave power project has cranked up at last three miles off the Portuguese coast, CNN reports. The first phase is expected to generate 2.25 megawatts, enough power for 1,000 homes, according to the Guardian.

“If successful, a second phase will see energy generation rise to 21 megawatts from a further 25 machines providing electricity for 15,000 Portuguese homes,” CNN says.

The generators, made by a company called Pelamis, are three red cylindrical converters (shown here) which are partially submerged in the Atlantic Ocean. “Moving up and down on the endless waves of the open sea, they convert motion into electricity, without emitting any of the carbon dioxide that is warming the planet,” the Guardian notes.



Novel Wave-Powered Generators Deployed in Sea Trials off Florida Coast


Technology from SRI International Offers Clean Energy Production from Ocean Waves

Wave BuoyST. PETERSBURG, FLA. – August 3, 2007 – SRI International, an independent, nonprofit research and development organization, announced today the deployment of a prototype buoy-mounted, ocean wave-powered generator off the coast of Florida in the Tampa Bay. Beginning today, SRI will test the wave-powered generator for approximately two weeks. The deployment is part of a program sponsored by HYPER DRIVE Corporation, Ltd., a Japanese company focused on development and deployment of wave-powered generators around the world.

SRI’s wave-powered generators can be deployed on existing ocean buoys that use batteries as their energy source. SRI’s new generator utilizes patented electroactive polymer artificial muscle (EPAM™) technology, and offers a renewable method to continually power ocean buoys. SRI will use instrumentation that allows remote monitoring of the generator’s output energy as well as wave height and buoy motion. Assisting the Menlo Park, California-based research team are researchers in SRI’s new Marine Technology Program, which is located in St. Petersburg, Florida. SRI is also working with Artificial Muscle, Inc., an SRI spin-off company and the exclusive licensee of EPAM, in the development of the EPAM components for the wave-powered generators.

“HYPER DRIVE is excited to work with SRI on this important application of EPAM technology,” said Shuji Yonemura, CEO, HYPER DRIVE. “We see great potential in applying this technology to wave-power generation around the world in the near future.”

“When SRI International opened its operations in St. Petersburg earlier this year, we anticipated great strides in marine research like we see today,” said St. Petersburg Mayor Rick Baker. “This energy-generating technology is a perfect fit for an industry based in St. Petersburg, which was designated Florida’s first and only green city by the Florida Green Building Coalition.”




Proving once again that there is little new under the sun (or the waves) is this 1932 version of the wave power generators that we showed here and here. It works on the basis of an “inertia motor” where “When a wave starts to lift the hollow sphere, the massive weight inside, because of its inertia, resists the movement and exerts terrific pressure in the lower cylinder. Finally the inertia of the weight is overcome. Then it possesses momentum. When the sphere reaches the crest of a wave, the combined effort of the momentum and the recoil of the huge, semi-elliptic springs exerts an equal pressure in the upper cylinder. The tremendous pressure is applied to oil, which, in turn, operates a special turbine which runs a generator. The current is conducted to the shore by submarine cable.” ::Modern Mechanix


Heaven Let The Light Shine Down – indeed


Peak Oil I Love YOU…Leanan does an amazing job

It is rare well at least medium rare that I give credit where credit is due but the Peak Oil folks and Leanan in particular deserve so much credit. Day in and Day out..NO MATTER what the price of oil or gasoline…they still believe that we are running out of the stuff. That is great because WE ARE:


From the paranoid:

Economic slump provides

tinder for global conflicts

With more people pushed into poverty,

the probability of armed rebellions increases around the world.

The new director of the National Intelligence Agency caused something of a stir last month when he warned Congress: “The primary near-term security concern of the United States is the global economic crisis and its geopolitical implications.”

On that theme, Hampshire College professor Michael Klare sees the world economic meltdown as already prompting “economic brush fires” around the world and worries whether these could prove “too virulent to contain.”

It seems as if the lyrics “trouble, trouble, trouble” from Meredith Willson’s “The Music Man” have become too real in today’s world.

Last November Robert Zoellick, president of the World Bank Group, noted that the global financial crisis would hit hardest the “poorest and most vulnerable” in the developing world. At that time, Mr. Zoellick calculated another 100 million people around the world had been driven into poverty as a result of soaring food and oil prices. These prices have eased. Nonetheless, hundreds of millions in poor nations must try to balance household budgets on incomes of $2 a day or less.

Now he’s forecasting the world economy will shrink by 1 to 2 percent this year, with difficulties possibly extending into next year. That’s much worse than the bank group’s forecast last year. It will be the first time world output has actually declined since World War II. And each 1 percent decline

in developing-country growth rates pushes an additional 20 million people into poverty, Zoellick reckons.

“The political ramifications [of rising poverty] will be great … though hard to predict,” says John Sewell, a senior scholar at the Woodrow Wilson Center for Scholars in Washington. Before the election last fall, he assembled a group of experts who urged the incoming president to streamline the nation’s development tools. These are now spread among 12 government departments, 25 government agencies, and almost 60 government offices. “No one is in charge,” the group held.

Powerful droughts around the world could cause food shortages, reversing a dramatic drop in global poverty that the economic crisis recently halted, worries Mr. Klare, an expert on peace and world security.

In Africa and in East Asia, population growth also adds to economic pressures.

As for brush fires, the driest tinder lies in eastern European states such as Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, and Bulgaria, he says. There, the people in fragile democracies had the notion that rising prosperity in the 1990s and up to 2006 would continue forever. Now the money from the West has dried up and gone home, leading to an economic bust.

“That is what is driving them to rage,” says Klare. “The promises have been taken away.”


To the paradoxical:

Renewable energy’s environmental paradox

Wind and solar projects may carry costs for wildlife

Image: Sandhill cranes

Sandy Seth, via Friends of the Bosque del Apache via AP

Sandhill Cranes fly in formation into the Bosque del Apache National Wildlife Refuge near Socorro, N.M., last year. Environmentalists have raised concerns that the birds’ habitats could be affected by a planned sun and wind power transmission line.

WASHINGTON – The SunZia transmission line that would link sun and wind power from central New Mexico with cities in Arizona is just the sort of energy project an environmentalist could love — or hate. And it is just the sort of line the Interior Department has been tasked with promoting — or guarding against.

If built, the 460-mile line would carry about 3,000 megawatts of power, enough to avoid the need for a handful of coal-fired plants and to help utilities meet mandated targets for use of renewable fuel. “We have to connect the sun of the deserts and the winds of the plains to places where people live,” Interior Secretary Ken Salazar said recently.

But the line would also cross grasslands, skirt two national wildlife refuges and traverse the Rio Grande, all habitat areas rich in wildlife. The graceful sandhill crane, for example, makes its winter home in the wetlands of New Mexico’s Bosque del Apache National Wildlife Refuge, right next to the path of the proposed power line. And much of the area falls under the protection of the Interior Department’s Bureau of Land Management (BLM).


To the pusillanimously positive:

April 15, 2009

Action Plan for 50%:

How Solar Thermal Can Supply Europe’s Energy

The solar thermal sector’s strategy to reach a 50% contribution

to Europe’s space and water heating requirements by 2050.

by David Appleyard, Associate Editor

London, UK [Renewable Energy World Magazine]

The research efforts and infrastructure needed to supply 50% of the energy for space and water heating and cooling across Europe using solar thermal energy has been set out under the aegis of the European Solar Thermal Technology Platform (ESTTP). Published in late December 2008, more than 100 experts developed the Strategic Research Agenda (SRA), which includes a deployment roadmap showing the non-technological framework conditions that will enable this ambitious goal to be reached by 2050.

A strategy for achieving a vision of widespread low-temperature solar thermal installations was first explored by ESTTP in 2006, but since then the SRA has identified key areas for rapid growth. These focus points include

the development of active solar buildings, active solar renovation, solar heat for industrial processes and solar heat for district heating and cooling. Meanwhile, amongst the main research challenges is the development of compact long-term efficient heat storage technology. Once available, they would make it possible to store heat from the summer for use in winter in a cost-effective way.

The ESTTP’s main objective is to create the right conditions in order to fully exploit solar thermal’s potential for heating and cooling in Europe and worldwide.

As a first step for the development of the deployment roadmap and of the Strategic Research Agenda, ESTTP developed a vision for solar thermal in 2030. Its key elements are to establish the Active Solar Building – covering 100% of their heating and cooling demand with solar energy – as a standard for new buildings by 2030; establish the Active Solar Renovation as a standard for the refurbishment of existing buildings by 2030 (Active Solar renovated buildings cover at least 50% of their heating and cooling demand with solar thermal energy); supply a substantial share of the industrial process heat demand up to 250°C, including heating and cooling, desalination and water treatment; and achieve broad use of solar energy in district heating and cooling.


They got it covered. My hat’s off to you.


What Can Happen To America If We Don’t Live Within Our Energy Means -South Africa

South Africa the home of the much touted and most used syngas projects in the world struggles to get by.

Originally started in response to WWI fuel shortages and escalated during WWII for all the obvious reasons …ummm apartheid and the efforts to defeat the ANC and Nelsen Mandella.

It has left South Africa  thus:

South Africa says still facing major energy crisis

Thu Apr 2, 2009 1:21pm EDT

By James Macharia

JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) – South Africa’s energy minister said on Thursday the country was still in the grip of a major power crisis despite being able to keep the lights on since a series of blackouts early last year.

Voluntary energy savings had failed to meet the required levels, and the country was risking new power cuts, the Minister of Minerals and Energy, Buyelwa Sonjica said in a statement.

State-owned utility Eskom, which provides 95 percent of the country’s power, has rationed electricity since early last year, but has not cut power since last April.

Sonjica said Africa’s biggest economy was suffering from a perilously low electricity reserve margin or spare capacity.

“The recent lack of blackouts has led to the assumption that our energy situation has been resolved,” Sonjica said.

“Unfortunately this is far from the truth. We are in trouble unless we all begin to take responsibility for our habits of energy wastage.”

Two years ago, Sonjica urged South Africans to save 10 percent of their electricity usage every year for the next five years but so far energy savings were way below that, she said.

Sonjica said a healthy electricity reserve margin was about 17 to 20 percent, to ensure that sudden changes in demand or supply and power-plant maintenance do not cause blackouts.

Eskom said in January the reserve margin was about 8 percent, and has said its long term target is 15 percent.

She said following the success of the Earth Hour over the weekend, and with winter fast approaching, she wanted South Africans to save power to ensure stable electricity supply.

Lights went out in homes across the globe on Saturday for Earth Hour 2009, a global event designed to highlight the threat from climate change.

Sonjica said the Earth Hour initiative would promote awareness that the country still faced a serious energy crisis because South Africa’s record on energy conservation was poor.

“South Africa is one of the least energy efficient nations in the world and the least efficient in Africa,” she said.

“We also hold the number 11 spot on the top 20 greenhouse gas emitters list and are responsible for 42 percent of Africa’s emissions. Every kilowatt of electricity you use produces 1 kg of carbon dioxide; one of the main greenhouse gases.”

Critics say the energy crisis that dented South Africa’s growth and investor-friendly image was caused by the government’s failure to invest in new power generation plants, coupled with surging demand led to the power crisis.  Continued…


I don’t think that sounds so good…SO KEEP TALKING CLEAN COAL BABY…it is a quick way to energy death.


Where Will Coal to Liquids Go? Maybe up in the air

This has been widely reported but I think people have overlooked the broader implications. This could actually work and be good for the environment:

Air Force Begins Testing Synfuel Blend in Fighter Engine

30 April 2008

Engineers at the US Air Force’s Arnold Engineering Development Center (AEDC) have begun testing a Pratt & Whitney F100 engine, the power plant for the F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon, with a blend of alternative synthetic fuel in the J-1 simulated altitude jet engine test cell. Once testing and evaluation is complete, this will be the first fighter jet engine to use the synthetic blend.

Since 2006, AEDC has taken an active role in its support of the US Air Force’s Alternative Fuels Certification Office in the evaluation and certification of the synthetic paraffinic kerosene (SPK) alternative fuel, which is derived from natural gas or coal using the Fischer-Tropsch (FT) process, for use in all Air Force aircraft.

Testing at AEDC on the GE F101 engine, the power plant for the B-1 Lancer bomber, was the first series of testing of a high performance, afterburning engine with FT fuel for a combat aircraft. (Earlier post.) This engine was also tested in the center’s J-1 high altitude jet engine test cell.

The Air Force has already certified the engines for the B-52 Stratofortress bomber to operate on FT fuel and the C-17 Globemaster III transport has flown on SPK fuel.


U.S. Military Launches Alternative-Fuel Push Dependence on Oil Seen as too Risky

The U.S. military consumes 340,000 barrels of oil a day, or 1.5% of
all of the oil used in the country. The Defense Department’s overall
energy bill was $13.6 billion in 2006, the latest figure available —
almost 25% higher than the year before. The Air Force’s bill for jet
fuel alone has tripled in the past four years. When the White House
submitted its latest budget request for the wars in Iraq and
Afghanistan, it tacked on a $2 billion surcharge for rising fuel

Do you wonder why the Navy thinks nuke is a good idea?

U.S. Military Launches
Alternative-Fuel Push
Dependence on Oil
Seen as too Risky
B-1 Takes Test Flight
May 21, 2008; Page A1

WHITE SANDS MISSILE RANGE, N.M. — With fuel prices soaring, the U.S.
military, the country’s largest single consumer of oil, is turning
into an alternative-fuels pioneer.

In March, Air Force Capt. Rick Fournier flew a B-1 stealth bomber code-
named Dark 33 across this sprawling proving ground, to confirm for the
first time that a plane could break the sound barrier using synthetic
jet fuel. A similar formula — a blend of half-synthetic and half-
conventional petroleum — has been used in some South African
commercial airliners for years, but never in a jet going so fast.
[Major Expense]

“The hope is that the plane will be blind to the gas,” Capt. Fournier
said as he gripped the handle controlling the plane’s thrusters during
the test flight. “But you won’t know unless you try.”

With oil’s multiyear ascent showing no signs of stopping — crude
futures set another record Tuesday, closing at $129.07 a barrel in New
York trading — energy security has emerged as a major concern for the

The U.S. military consumes 340,000 barrels of oil a day, or 1.5% of
all of the oil used in the country. The Defense Department’s overall
energy bill was $13.6 billion in 2006, the latest figure available —
almost 25% higher than the year before. The Air Force’s bill for jet
fuel alone has tripled in the past four years. When the White House
submitted its latest budget request for the wars in Iraq and
Afghanistan, it tacked on a $2 billion surcharge for rising fuel

Synthetic fuel, which can be made from coal or natural gas, is
expensive now, but could cost far less than the current price of oil
if it’s mass-produced.

Just as important, the military is increasingly concerned that its
dependence on oil represents a strategic threat. U.S. forces in Iraq
alone consume 40,000 barrels of oil a day trucked in from neighboring
countries, and would be paralyzed without it. Energy-security
advocates warn that terrorist attacks on oil refineries or tankers
could cripple military operations around the world. “The endgame is to
wean the dependence on foreign oil,” says Air Force Assistant
Secretary William Anderson.

Some Pentagon officers have embraced planning around the “peak oil”
theory, which holds that the world’s oil production is about to
plateau due to shrinking resources and limited investment in many of
the most oil-rich regions of the Middle East. Earlier this year, they
brought Houston investment banker Matthew Simmons to the Pentagon for
a presentation on peak oil; he warned that under the theory, “energy
security becomes an oxymoron.” House Democrats have proposed creating
a new Defense Department position to manage the military’s overall
energy needs.


Many Readers might be suprised that I might support this idea…But Why? Well, what if the military did it right. My main objection to Coal to Liquid Programs in Illinois  is that they either involve bogus methods of carbon sequestration (untested deep well injection into sandstone) or they don’t. Which would amount to just more global warming when alternatives are available. Using the end product of Liquid To Coal processes as jet fuel for The Defense Department makes excellent sense because there is no alternative. If the Liquid To Coal plant is on a military base there is no environmental ruckus, the US Goverment becomes liable for the Risks and the Cleanup. In addition, if they sited them near one of the depleted secure oilfields , like in OHIO or OKLAHOMA, the sequestration option is viable because they could build a pipeline and pump the effluent to the oil fields. They would in effect be waste free. But Mr. CES you say, will the military do things right? I know, but maybe this time they will.